My theologys still up-in-the-air, and I dont care if it never comes down. God forbid. I much prefer interacting with the Holy Spirit and reading Scripture. Sproul Ive learned much from him, though I dont always agree. I didn't quite understand the sin stuff. Granted, some assume Total Depravity to mean human beings to be totally depraved. A stupendously important point, Jeff. Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Lutheranism all come to mind off the top of my head. When people are discussing a theological point over which they have never been hurt, they will present more matter-of-factly. Be prepared though, reading The Institutes is a difficult undertaking. Systematic theology books are plentiful. LL.B (Hons) London, CLP. (Keep in mind Sproul Jr.s insistence that God always acts according to his strongest desire.). I understand the desire for them, I respect the way that they are conceived, and there are parts of them that I think very useful, but as a whole, they are too small for the God I now know. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said to him, You are right, Teacher. Feel free to correct me if Im wrong. elatigirl Im with you here, which is why I dont post much on these theological threads It seems useless to me to try to figure out God especially as Scripture makes it clear that he has many attributes on either end of the spectrum. This is very important to get a true and not twisted idea of what Calvinism, in its purest form, is. Does it say milk of the word? That sounds contradictory to the importance that many place on the word. Its like asking the old question: Can God create a rock to heavy for Him to throw? In fact, I doubt any of the Cavlinistas would even agree with that thought process. Here is where I part company with much of Christian ideology, and heres why: Earthquakes, tsunamis, category five tornadoes, decrepitude and death are all beyond our pay-grades to decide upon, much less get resolution from. Theres nothing wrong with pondering and wondering at the truths Jesus represents. Even though I have now separated myself from that belief system, connecting with those words brought me right back to those intense feelings of God was right there watching me get abused and didnt do a darn thing about it. So I posted my abuse story/Calvin connection and have tried to keep that thread safe. The Calvinism debate thread is a great place to really get into the nitty gritty of those tough issues. And even if God has blessed them, more often that not, Gods blessing is a resource, not a reward. Hi guys, great posts, esp (from a personal point of view) from Jeff S, TW, Nick Bulbeck and others its been such a long thread I cant remember them all . I guess what Im trying to say is: No one forces any of us to comment; but once we do we are obligated to defend our ideas. So many have been through one form of abuse or another and have needs that we should allow for, beyond social norms. Howard Hendricks 20. When I read the Bible, I find a lot more there about Gods love (and forgiveness a symptom of his love) and our responsibility to share that love (e.g., in the OT prophets writings we have) than I do about his glory or his sovereignty. I was pointing out that this is an issue that goes beyond Reformed theology. But when I start debating it, it looks a lot like I follow Paul! I follow Apollos!, which the scripture CLEARLY condemns. Some of his hearers might have been scared as, uh, heck. Could the person have simply avoided it and gone to someplace else without even making the comment? I just hope and pray that you can see this. What DOES bother me is when people reject something on the basis of misinformation. Michael Horton, a Calvinist, did the forward to the book. And requires even more general kindness and that continued diet in that warm kitchen. Jesus said to believe in him as a child. Im not always that good at explaining things well. It's because Caleb was allegedly involved in multiple sexual relationships while on staff at daddy's church and he was, The Gospel Coalition now says not everyone can be a missionary. Where we end, he begins. There is a new evangelism taking place. When we dont like what someone teaches we try to make them a non Christian so we dont have to love them. Any benefit we get from His death (i.e., salvation) is great, but if we act like we are too focused on salvation, we are selfish and may not even be saved. CALVIN!. It is counterproductive. Wow! Online, of course, its much harder to gauge actually, impossible, since you have no idea who is reading what youre writing. And speaking for myself, I take that conflict ( as an adult, as a student of scripture, having read many books on Calvinism) very seriously. And no, I did not. As Ive said, Id prefer not to discuss Calvinism at all. In fact, as Sproul describes what he sees as the sovereignty if God, his view is the latter- that God exercises his sovereignty by choosing what he allows and what he does not. And unless I misunderstand Jesus diatribes against the teachers of the law, theres no filthier or more deceitful idolatry. I think of it as humility and respecting my limitations, but I understand the line between humility and doublethink is quite thin. He said I was wrong. But that isnt enough. I kept a notebook, carefully writing all of the arguments in favor of Calvinism. I am currently reading Roger Olson's book, Against Calvinism. However, there are a lot of us (from Liturgical Protestant churches, as well as the RCC, Orthodox churches, the German/Dutch anabaptist churches etc.) And since they realize that their belief is based on purely subjective interpretations of scripture that require severe qualificationwell, much easier to get you to just concede their premises by couching them in theologically nebulous, but emotionally attractive (and manipulative), platitudes. Comments moving to the To Calvinist posts from this point. If you read it, you will most likely have a heart attack. b) I want to distance myself and the Calvinists I know from the abusive people who mis-represent the theology. I spent quite a while in these neo-Calvinist, Piper, hipster fundamentalist, etc. http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife/topic/happiness/helping-others. Press J to jump to the feed. Calvin as a Ferengi LOL!!! Makes available his super-ability where your ability comes to an end. This is what some people have heard their entire life. But when our theories about how god works become more beloved to us than God himself, theyre just idols. I am spelling out what is being taught, at least to my untrained ear, under the name of Calvinism, in hopes that we can all learn to: a)recognize where we are coming from, and b) respect those with very different takes on these things as brothers, sisters, and seekers. This was no emotional, short term thing. Although I had been churched, I had rarely opened my Bible. *Thank you* for this post, as well as for your use of the term non-Calvinist. I guess a lot of folks dont really know that its possible to be non-Calvinist but emphatically not Arminian. To me, that question is the greatest challenge to Christianity there is. @wartwatch Not even the milk toast "We regret if anyone was offended"? I think it is sad that the PC(USA) rejected the song because of a line that is part of their doctrinal heritage. Yes, some would slip away. B. Indeed. Ok, see I was looking at this in a totally different way. I really dont dwell on that because it is so difficult. * Okay, end of sermon. But, as Ilook back, I am gratified bythe number of friends who have stayed the course through the years. So when people try to argue logical conclusions of my beliefs, I tend to get upset if they arent conclusions that I arrive at. (Okay, Calvin-haters, have at me for this unforgivable understatement. I used try but I have given up. Otherwise, you get dismissed as a hayseed rube who is barely literate and not qualified to question Calvinism. God does indeed work in mysterious and wonderful ways. I dont know that any of the venues get one closer to God than the others. That Cals portray Cal in so many ways, even on the same points, adds another layer of confusion to the conversation for me. Why the pessimism? I am a Christian. Im concerned with the preoccupation of defending Calvin when someone is hurting. Just happy to be able to trust that God really is good again. So in other contexts your Calvinism/steak analogy is right as far as I know. The greatness of God must be understood in a different way because this construct caused harm so deep that it tore into the core of me and made me wish for eternal death. c) I want to move conversations about abuse beyond the Calvinism discussion because I think its a massive red herring. which is really funny because in my experience, the Lutheran church never ever mentions either of those things. We really, really need it. For there, we will still be the created and He will still be the Creator. But are *we* the measure of truth? But I could not have thrown it were it not for my moment-by-moment dependence on the being and power of God. How do you know that this, in fact, is what the Bible did and is not what God IS like? This is an absolutely beautiful statement! People like RC Sproul understand that he can woo you all day long with heady notions of secondary causes because he understands that it will appeal to your false, but emotionally necessary urge for feeling loved and your sense of justice, without actually conceding his utterly deterministic assumptions. As I was saying in my post above, not only is it difficult communicating with Cals because they usually insist you just dont understand Cal!, but they cant agree with each other. Much longer than I had planned, so Ill stop here. Yes, I believe that what were on earth mainly to do is bring glory to God, and our salvation and love for others is a part of that. Im not saying thats being done intentionally- that is why Im seeking to clarify what I (and others with similar beliefs) believe. I want you to try to make the distinction between disagreeing strongly with what you say and believe, and disagreeing strongly with YOU. That is a love that does not send babies or the mentally unable to hell, nor is it a love that creates people predestined to hell, but rather gives them a choice and only when repeatedly rejected, judges people for their rejection of him. It stopped making sense when God began to show me in many profound ways that He loves me. Am very sorry to read of your sils diagnosis. FWIW, I dont consider any Arminian (see link to chart above) a non-believer. Agree. Does that make me not a Calvinist? And I pretty much agree with everything you say here. It simply makes it harder for people who are trying to recover from abuse, and continue to believe that God is good and loves them, to want to engage in a search for Truth. Ann. Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. 1911. And toss in a side dish of I cant be wrong. I may post a little bit of my testimony and how I came to by position of being a non calvinist but for now just wanted to say thanks for this post and for all that you 2 do and for Wade as well and e-church! Im eagerly awaiting my next blog post, too The blog kind of fell off the wayside due to some personal stuff that ate up most of my time. I am not familiar with the guy in the video or the people behind that You Tube channel, nor have I investigated who they are and what they believe, so I may not be in agreement with all their views. Churches that sever the root of truth may seem to flourish for a season, but they will wither soon, or turn into something besides a Christian church. But to have to constantly think, Must remember its for Gods glory is sheer legalism and bondage. Its also what attracts many people to Calvinism nice boxes for everything, and rules connecting those boxes. Brings to mind the documentary This Emotional Life I saw on PBS. But, knowing that this type of discussion triggers upsetting thoughts, why did you encourage it? whats so complicated about that? He/She needs to be able to clearly understand why it is damaging and to openly explain how he/she does not hold to those ideas, which have been so awful as to cause some among us to become suicidal. Due to the successful ministries of dynamic authors, preachers and speakers such as Louie Giglio, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Kevin DeYoung and Josh Harris, Calvinist/Reformed theology is ranked, according to Time magazine, 3rd on the list of Top 10 Ideas that are Changing the World Right Now . We wouldnt be having any of these conversations if that doctrine was being labeled as hyper-Calinvism, which is what it has been called in the past. Thank you! And, lets face it, which side was harsher on your blog? The bullying was behind the scenes. Breastmilk tested at 1 year postpartum is different than breastmilk at 6 months postpartum, etc. Calvinists are Christians and Calvinists and non-Calvinist Christians share a multitude of common ideas and beliefs. Good point. Just an observation. @ Katie: To give a sense of scale for word count well over 600,000: Rule of thumb for both manuscript format and mass-market paperback is 250 words/page. Plus I had never heard of tongues). It is nice to meet someone who remembers.If you dont mind me prying, where did you grow up? Matthew Pinson Michael Brown Michael Heiser Mildred Bangs Wynkoop Miner Raymond N Nathan Bangs Norman Geisler [footnote]Geisler refers to himself as a Calvinist but his works reflect a more non-Calvinist view of soteriology [/footnote] O P Paige Patterson Philip H. Towner Q R Randolph S. Foster Ravi Zacharias Richard Lenski Richard Watson Arguing these issues sends me down the crazy cycle of shame, pain, abandonment, God not hearing me, etc. (though in truth, I probably still get to read most of your comments from my lurking place, even though I rarely get to comment anymore). But I know the principles are the same. It doesnt cause comfort, which might be expected, but revulsion because of the nature of evil. I am neither. Im sure you didnt mean every single one. But it will, by that, also have less life in it because it stays in the realm of ideas. Our sinful human nature craves it. There are 5 major points of disagreement between Calvinists and Arminians. Tell himhow much you love the Lord and live outyour Christianlife. I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. Here is a link to a chart comparing Calvinism to Arminianism. @ JeffB: Also, not all Calvinists are believe in particular pre-destination that is, not all Calvinists believe God causes everything, there are degrees from some just view salvation as pre-destined, to others believing you are reading this because God ordained it from the beginning, so Pipers view of tornadoes is not universally agreed on by Calvinists. When you get called a heretic,"barely a Christian" or whatever, think of it this way. This might be where Romans 8:28 comes in, or the story of Joseph in the Old Testament. I know you know how to do that because Ive seen you do it at ACFJ. He, as I said previously, shows quotes by Calvinists during the video. There were many songs that resonated with me, especially I Dont Know How to Love Him. for me that meant there was much i had to learn about loving Jesus. And heres something I realized: I HATE the word Calvinist. I dont see you behaving as a bully. But maybe there is just too much pain and hurt for that to be possible. And thanks for your honest answers. The following are theologians, listed alphabetically, who are non-Calvinist in their soteriology. Everything you are saying here is consistent with a Reformed view of human responsibility. Someone on another blog (I think it was another blog, unless I saw it here earlier) posted a link to this video. (LogOut/ That said, I am in the Non-Calvinist-non-Arminian camp (currently in a Mennonite church, but not an ethnic Mennonite), so I label myself Anabaptist to describe my neither-or in terms of Arminian/Calvinist. 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. I am much more hyper in my comments than they are. They always enter the discussion with the premises well defined; and the cornerstone premise is that you are wrong and they are right. Once we agree that all ideas have the exact same chance of being wrongwe have merely held the door open for ANOTHER, and even more sinister and vicious, arbiter of truth to be released: the power of the keys, which is nothing more than the power of DESTRUCTIONand with this, the powers that be continue to be the powers that be. The Calvinistas act on a lot of things. He referred to our mutual, former experience as Bible light. Reformed theology has other tenets, which Calvin influenced, along with other theologians like Augustine (354-430) and Ulrich Zwingli (1484-1531). I ended up writing my final essay for my theology degree on the extent of the atonement. Since so many Calvinists believe everything in this life is decreed, it would mean that God decreed you to write/create this blog from before the foundations of the world, so how can they object to you doing so? We are very clear that we do not see men as the only abusers nor abuse inherently a gender issue. I pretty much agree with everything JeffB says here. Why does a house wife bring more glory to God than a female scientist who wins a Nobel prize for her work? System- & neat-little-box-free. Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by bjonson, Jan 10, 2006. http://www.biblebelievers.net/Calvinism/kjcalvn1.htm, http://www.thebereancall.org/Search_Search.aspx?SectionID=1359&search=calvin, http://www.geocities.com/calvinismheresy/calvinismmain.html, http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/heresies_of_calvinism.htm, http://www.swrb.ab.ca/newslett/actualNLs/RHNarmin.htm. @ Hester: Which is also one of the reasons I mentioned (a bit upthread) that Lutheran does not equal having to believe in every daggoned thing that Luther wrote. Who did he think he was? Hes what theologians call a simple Being. Not simple = not complex, but meaning that there is a Unity in whatever he does. Shares words of wisdom & advice with you. If the answer sometimes doesnt work then weve got more work to do As for my content, I think the Nicene Creed covers a lot of it. The ideas of bad and good are meaningless in Calvinist doctrine. German-American theologian and philosopher Paul Tillich is remembered for his work in the field of Christian existentialism and for concepts such as the method of correlation. I know of Hortons book and I shall read that after I finish Olson. He followed what was Augustinianism, which was the soteriological understanding of the church historically - all the way back to the apostles themselves. Deny their premises, no matter how altruistic they may sound. This is a huge difference from the Calvinistas who dont. @ JeffB: C.K. Or if they reject it because they think it teaches that God loves to abuse his children. In that thread on JAs site, even when I tried to pull out, it felt like I was getting pulled back in. This is the place where all the puzzle pieces do not fit for me, and I am OK with that. You can even put your feet up I dont mind! Any small error can lead us on to some very large mistakes if we arent careful. Hes big enough. held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. Ill have to look that one up. Im so glad that God rescued me from my foray into Calvinism a couple of years ago. . Probably originated with Calvinists during the Reformation Wars or their descendants the Puritans; as an answer to the question Am I One of The Elect? Using Im Rich! My Comment was Deleted Enter fatalistic determinism. I also was not the only one who reacted to this. As a moderator at my blog, yes, Id shut it down and recommend that they take it to the Calvinism debate thread if they want to discuss it further. william preston obituary,
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