And the Me-262 would take advantage on their speed instead. Other armament of later models included the following (some trialed, some not): 2 x 550lb SC250/SD250 bombs under forward fuselage. highly decorated pilots in the Luftwaffe, finally took off to engage the enemy swooped down. German Me-262 pilots reported they could not outrun a P-51 in a dive Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa and an old friend of Col. Rogers. See also this old Google Groups thread, probably back from Usenet times: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/L7m7gZlpnKQ. I fired three short bursts and saw the plane emitting smoke. 'He (f-106deltadart.com). It definitely didn't help when at one point, a pilot took four 30mm shells and was still intact after. North American P-51 Mustang Messerschmitt Bf 109 Ceiling (m) 12,771 11,125 RATE-OF-CLIMB 3,475 ft/min [Diff.+175 feet] RATE-OF-CLIMB 3,300 ft/min [Diff.-175 feet] North American P-51 Mustang Messerschmitt Bf 109 RoC (ft) 3,475 3,300 ARMAMENT Dependent upon model, includes any of the following: Me 262 vs P-51 Mustang : Europe 1944-45 - books.google.com Captured on a USAAF P-51 Mustang gun camera - A Luftwaffe Me 262A being shot down (the pilot has already bailed out) in 1945 (Photo Source: Wikipedia - Impact Magazine, a . Clicking on "Accept" authorises all profiling cookies. So, when attacked by jets, the '51 pilot would have to (conservapedia.com), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? from Joan Romba. Other North American P-51 Mustang comparisons: The North American P-51 Mustang, affectionately known as the best fighter of World War II, has rightfully earned its place among the aviation elite. Messerschmitt Me 262, WerkNr. The Yak-9? Many escorting P-51 pilots shot down Me-262s by simply doing a Split-S maneuver Force Service in 1950 at the onset of the Korean Conflict. The transfer of data can only take place anonymously and with prior consent. (#D144,938 in June 4, 1946). During the Vietnam war from what I have read the F-4 Phantom II didn't have much of a succesful kill ratio against the more nimble MiG-17's and MiG-21's. Another time, when on patrol, he shot down several US B-17 Flying Fortress bombers that didn't react to repeated warnings. The A-4a and A-5a were both reconnaissance versions. Answer (1 of 17): Some interesting fighters are often overlooked in discussions of three "1st generation" jets: the Me 262 (operational from 1944), F-86 (1949) and MiG-15 (1949). Equation alignment in aligned environment not working properly. Two seconds later, I saw another piece hit close to the first piece. At high-altitude, FW-190 became vulnerable as it lost performance and maneuverability. REAL Footage Of Red Tails Taking Down Me 262s - World War Wings jockey would claim the first Me 262 scalps. Kommando Messerschmitt Me 262, WerkNr. the east-west runway and the taxiing ship got into position for a formation For example: the great speed advantage of the ME 262 vs. P-51 | WWII Forums Oberfahnrich Russel. No 401's success on October 5 th, was the first Me 262 to be shot down by gunfire and the first in which fire . Not sure about any others, though I would imagine the USAAF and RAF ratios in Europe were somewhat lower. . On Internet, a reference to book "P-51 Mustang: From 1940 to 1980" [ref: Ziegler]. Please. Only veteran or lucky German pilots could survive in a Me-109. Why were so few Luftwaffe attacks flown against the Normandy beaches on 6 June 1944? The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe (English: "Swallow") was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft. March 1945 off the Frankfurt Autobahn. Me 262s vs P-51 Mustangs: rare WWII color combat footage Also the RAF Thunderbolts never suffered an air to air loss, but fighter oppositoin was limited. Lee Archer returned from the war he was the Tuskegee Airmens high scorer with four aerial victories only to be refused service in a railroad dining car while traveling with his wife to his next military assignment. It acted as a long-range escort and could cover great distances to protect bombers on their missions. Which one of the two, the P-51 Mustang or the BF 109, did win - Quora Another significant difference is that the P-51 was primarily used as a bomber escort, while the Me 262 was mainly used for air combat. In order to attack the jets in the air, the P-51 needed to dive in order to be able to close on the enemy jets when they attacked the bombers. He commented that the jet fuel's inflammability "made a kill almost certain when it was in your sights" - he commented that they had to carry a lot of fuel. 13:12. as within seconds, a P-51 would reach 500+MPH Robert F. Dorr is an author, U.S. Air Force veteran, and retired American diplomat who Great article, Robert! document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); What are you waiting for? Try the F-15 Eagle. In that way the Mustang would have equal Reported by some sources to have lost his life that day, Ambs actually walked away from the experience and lived a long life (he would live to see history buffs build and fly an Me 262 replica in a new century), but he never fought again. The P-51D Mustang? May 2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ], http://forums.bfnation.net/viewtopic.php?t=9765, http://www.mysa.com/mysanantonio/links/yeager.shtml, http://www.acepilots.com/planes/p51d_mustang.html, http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_10.html, (You must log in or sign up to reply here. This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. Me-262's nose was packed with large cannons and machine guns for destroying bombers, Around 1,200 Me-262's were destroyed, by strafing, bombing etc etc.. You must log in or register to reply here. Making its operational debut in the summer of 1944, and powered by the Jumo 004 jet engine, the Me 262 outclassed anything the Allies had in terms of speed and firepower. Worse was to come on the afternoon of Nov. P-51 vs Bf-109 P-51 vs Bf-109 Airplanes armament and equipment 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings, 2 x 12.7mm machine guns in nose 4 x 12.7mm machine guns in wingsP-51D: 6 x .50 cal machine guns in wings Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. Messerschmitt Me 262 | World War II Wiki | Fandom The Messerschmitt M . By [emphasis added]. I was at 17,000 feet when I broke off the encounter., A piece of the plane, either the canopy or one of the jet orifices, flew off. but North American Aviation's Edgar Schmued [ref: Ziegler, McLaren]. Not which aircraft was the best at shooting them down, which is statistically unprovable, as you rightly caution. Something else entirely? P-51 Mustang compared to other airplanes - Jim Brooks Bf-109 vs P-38 a6m-zero. [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? His adversary, a jet with a steel blue-gray camouflage, Lane wrote later, was piloted by 7-kill ace Leutnant (2nd Lt.) Alfred Ambs. JeuxVideo.com. Me-262's top speed was reported as 515MPH or 540MPH Hit by 30mm minengeschoss : survived. More from. Not really, the P-51D Mustang was certainly a good fighter. The Mustang was designed in April 1940 by a team headed by James H. Kindelberger [5] of North American Aviation (NAA) in response to a requirement of . its strengths, the P-51 was more than capable of taking on the feared Me 262 on They include: The Me 262 was significantly faster than the P-51, reaching speeds up to 702 Mph. MiGs, and they were so much faster. Forced to defend himself, he shot down two P-51 Mustang fighters. P-51 Mustang Replica With Big-Block Chevy Power - Dailymotion Warning: some page functionalities could not work due to your privacy choices, Google Analytics (GA4) is a web analytics service provided by Google Ireland Limited (Google). Spitfire had same engine, but despite being smaller, was slower than Mustang. 15,000ft and headed for the attack, with my flight behind me. But there is historical curiosity at stake :-). I know I tend to sometimes have leading questions and I would not criticize someone for elaborating on it. Place of processing: Ireland Privacy Policy. (Drew's assigned airplane was Detroit Miss, a P-51D-10-NA, 44-14164, marked E2 D.) Urban L. Drew joined the U.S. Army Air Corp in 1942 and trained as a P-51 fighter pilot. History Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for historians and history buffs. Actual top speed depends on altitude and other factors. Who Shot Down the First Me 262 Jet during World War II? 1:12. take-off. Library of Congress photo, We knew the German jets were faster than we were. We easily out-maneuvered him, and when he dived pass us, I realized the enemy aircraft was jet-propelled. The pilot concluded his account by warning starkly that, Care should be taken when breaking into this type of aircraft. As told by Robert Forsyth in his book Me 262 Vs P-51 Mustang, since August 1944, the USAAF had been aware that the Luftwaffe had started to deploy the Me 262 in small numbers over the Western Front in both the fighter and bomber roles. MiGs, and they were so much faster. I confirm that I want to send my data to receive news and promotions via email. By giving your consent, the data will be sent anonymously, thus protecting your privacy. I was always under the impression the ME262's ratio wasn't that hot as many were shot down on takeoff or landing? November 1940 . Wartime Me 262 Pilot Said He Flew Faster Than Sound Fw-190 vs P-51. Note that he wearing a promotional hat for the movie Red Tails which incorporated his story. 1 x cannon in propeller hub state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance and combat capability for On March 18th, 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. Download Free P 51 Mustang Engineering Drawings Read Pdf Free - cuc [ref: Hitlers Jet Plane by Mano Ziegler] Furthermore, if flown to [ref: koreanwar.org] A quick Google, Your answer could be improved with additional supporting information. a fast climbing turn to the left. I saw a crash and a puff of black smoke. In terms of speed, the Me 262 had a significant advantage it reached speeds of up to 702 Mph, making it the first operational jet fighter in history. But each pilots skill and resolve, On each bomber crew is depending. [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? Messerschmitt Me 262/Bf109 vs P-51 Mustang War Thunder The ratio's for Mustangs was ~ 10.7:1, the P-47's ~ 7.5:1 and the P-38's were ~ 2.6:1. wrecks there were two mounting columns of black smoke.. P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better? . he shot down a Soviet MIG jet. Spitfire had same engine, but despite being smaller, was slower than Mustang. How did in WW2 P51 mustangs compete with Me262s of the Luftwaffe? March 1945. During the war, the P-51 established a reputation as a fierce air-to-air combat fighter and as an aircraft capable of blasting ships, trains, and enemy targets in Western Europe. And finally, lets not forget about aesthetics the sleek lines and swept wings of the Me 262 are pretty distinct from the boxy shape and straight branches of the P-51. Messerschmitt Me 262/Bf109 vs P-51 Mustang War Thunder - YouTube 0:00 / 3:55 Messerschmitt Me 262/Bf109 vs P-51 Mustang War Thunder Kimchan7 27.8K subscribers. had crucial advantages in range, speed, maneuverability. Discord - https://discord.gg/CVrJQ8aTwitter - Twitter.com/TJ3GamingTwitch - Twitch.com/TJ3GamingInstagram - Instagram.com/TJ3Gaming The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. The Messerschmitt Me 262, nicknamed Schwalbe (German: "Swallow") in fighter versions, or Sturmvogel (German: "Storm Bird") in fighter-bomber versions, is a fighter aircraft and fighter-bomber that was designed and produced by the German aircraft manufacturer Messerschmitt.It was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft.. opportunity to fire at the jet in a head-on pass trading gun for Bf-109 vs P-47 bf-109. The briefer is Lt. (later Col.) Edward Gleed. came into firing range. to haul back on the stick to stay with him.. The nemesis of P-51 wasn't the jet Me-262 -- it was the radial-engine FW-190. Browse more videos. In a February 5 interview, Dr. Roscoe Brown, 91, was remembering a pivotal battle as a P-51 Mustang fighter pilot in World War II. Highest kill ratio ever ? [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? The Me 262 was also faster and more innovative than the P-51. Hope you enjoy! Though ultimately, it was too little too late, the unmistakable roar of its engines striking fear into Allied troops as they raced through the skies was all the encouragement Nazi leaders needed to push forward with its development and construction. The P-51 Mustang or the Me 262 Schwalbe? IMO it is hard to compare the P-51 and teh Bf-109, simply because they were designed at least until the K variant of the Bf-109 for generaly different purpouses. So which aircraft is better? November 1940: de Havilland DH.98 Mosquito (Prototyp) Martin B-26 Marauder (40-1361) 29. In Air Force's Airman publication, Yingling claims his MiG-15 kill was confirmed, possibly he may have chosen it if requirements called for two-seats. 9 years ago. [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights", interview of Roscoe Brown and Richard Candelaria], [ref: 359th Fighter Group by Jack H. Smith], "Mr. Yingling is a World War II veteran of the Navy and began his Air First proposed to the air ministry in the summer of 1938 as a research aircraft to use the new BMW P 3302 gas turbine engine, Messerschmitt's Project P.1065 was pursued by a design team led by Woldemar Voigt. However, as with other turbojet engines at the time, the Me 262's engines did not provide sufficient thrust at low air speeds and throttle response was slow, meaning in certain circumstances such as takeoff and landing, the aircraft became a vulnerable target. Join in if you dare! Browse more videos. In the Pacific the Hellcat was 19:1 and the Corsair was 11:1. For this reason, the data transferred to GA will be made anonymous through a proxy system called "My Agile Pixel" which will replace your personal data such as the IP address with anonymous data and therefore not traceable to you. Only in exceptional cases, the IP address will be sent to Google's servers and shortened within the United States. over 500 alone are accredited to JG 7 but that is too high. The Messerschmitt Me-262 Was the Harbinger of a New Era in - HistoryNet Welcome to the WWII Forums! #KB109: Schumacher Mission FT Brushless swap and test However, the availability of both machines and trained pilots was becoming an insurmountable problem for the Luftwaffe. P-51s and other prop fighters could easily outmaneuver Me-262s. This style emphasised good manoeuvrability and turning radius, which fighters such as the Spitfire, BF-109, Yak-3 etc had in spades. But, taking the letter, not necessarily the spirit, of this question, we are being asked which aircraft shot down the most 262s. The men already knew they could fly and fight. The anonymization works by shortening the IP address of the Users within the borders of the member states of the European Union or other countries that are members of the Agreement on the European Economic Area. Hope you enjoy! Due to his boost, renewed effort and resources were put into the Messerschmitt Me262 . The A-2a 'Sturmvogel' had only two 30mm autocannons but could carry up to 1,000 kilograms of bombs. US F-51 pilots trained against US jets and mentioned that scoring a hit on a MiG-15 would be very difficult: Misunderstandings about Twin Mustang was it but between these two planes the P-51s were ordered to make tight turns that the Me-262s could not do, I think. ' There had been a scandalous shortage of 110-gallon auxiliary fuel tanks at Ramitelli, which resourceful maintainers had resolved by both hook and crook, and now those teardrop-shaped fuel tanks, each worth the price of a new Chevrolet sedan, went tumbling into the void. Drew flew his P-51 Which aircraft is the better fighter? [ref: Fighting Hitlers Jets by Robert Dorr] Not only did it blow past the competition, literally (with a top speed of 190 kilometers per hour faster than the North American P-51 Mustang), but it also gave the faltering German Luftwaffe a brief moment of superiority that they hadnt experienced in quite some time. designed a superior twin-engine fighter. Get the best aviation news, stories and features from The Aviation Geek Club in our newsletter, delivered straight to your inbox. NA P-51 Mustang vs FW 190 Butcherbird Altitude = 25,000 feet61 5.10 Attrition of the Luftwaffe Fighter Force in Early 194463 . Is a PhD visitor considered as a visiting scholar? Hubert Lange, a Me 262 pilot, said: "the Messerschmitt Me 262's most dangerous opponent was the British Hawker Tempestextremely fast at low altitudes, highly manoeuvrable and heavily armed." There were four Galland was highly impressed by the aircraft's capabilities and speed and became an advocate or the aircraft's mass production. I am wondering what necessistated the change to bubbletop, and why razorback style was initially chosen. Kulp sustained severe wounds but survived. Hit by 12.7mm bullets: destroyed. 1x Packard (Rolls Royce) V-1650-7 Merlin. Len Krenzler (actionart.ca) My way being that the P-51 is probaly in the top five piston fighter aircraft in history, and yes, that is also an opinion, But the Me 262 is the first, truely sucessful jet ever. Its a matchup that aviation enthusiasts have debated for years. I then pulled up and circled over the spot where he went down. was contrived by Lucas for drama, but in reality, would've been stupid. The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. Me 262 Vs P-51 Mustang is published by Osprey Publishing and is available to order here. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. 1st Lt. Earl R. Lane had extraordinary eyesight and scored his victory from a 2,000-yard distance in a deflection shot while in a tight, left-hand turn, using the relatively new K-14 lead-computing gunsight to lead far ahead of the jet. The Mustang had a maximum speed of 437 mph while the Me 262 could fly at a maximum of . Lee Archer returned from the war he was the Tuskegee Airmens high scorer with four aerial victories only to be refused service in a railroad dining car while traveling with his wife to his next military assignment. Messerschmitt Me 262 (Schwalbe / Sturmvogel) North American P-51 Mustang RoC (ft) 3,937 3,475 ARMAMENT STANDARD: 4 x 30mm MK 108 automatic cannons in nose section. If you have any questions please contact us. With a passion for aviation, as well as surfing and scanning the web, Rocco is in his element analyzing aircraft data and the differences and similarities between aircraft. Messerschmitt Me-262 - 2. World War 2 [ref: Wagner, McLaren]. for take-off, but at that moment the P-51D of 361st FG pilot 1Lt Urban L. Drew Messerschmitt Me262A-1A & P-51D Mustang, Airfix A50183 (2021) - Scalemates Log in or Sign up to interact with the community. All Rights Reserved. This was made using the World War II flight simulator IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles series. . This was made using. their respective air forces. May 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ], [ 07. Detroit Miss | This Day in Aviation The Messerschmitt Me 262, the first operational jet fighter aircraft in history, served multiple purposes during WWII and beyond. P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262: WE FOUGHT THE ARYAN RACES to the death..WE ARE BRAVE AND STRONG.and if THEY show up . Report. Trials of P-51 proved it kept its speed during a dive because of its low drag P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings. they knew they would be completely outnumbered and Additionally Uffz. Somersault-while-firing trick was actually done by Richard Candelaria of another USAAF squadron There was black smoke and an explosion.. Red Tails: P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262 euronews (en franais) More from MotorTrend. In terms of performance the P-51D will out perform the Fw 190 A series and the Earlier Bf 109 series easily when used correctly. film, was eventually credited with the destruction of two Me 262s. Me 262 vs P-51 Mustang - United States 'This was unusual because of the speed differences between flying 170 missions in a P-51 Mustang, a piston-engine plane in which ), North American P-51H Mustang by David McLaren, Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang, video: "Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft", P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? So doesn't seem fair to put the best, top of the line piston fighter agiast the first sucessful jet one? Kulp sustained severe wounds but survived. was doing around 350 mph, and the jet was doing 450. The Spitfire? You might also like. Hollywooooood! Fw-190 vs P-51 fw-190-wurger. Both involve healthy jets, and American ace pilots. View the Cookie Policy. There were four ). U.S. Air Force photo. The shortage of drop tanks at Ramitelli forced the maintainers to get creative. P 51 Mustang's guard the bombers, Their crews call 'our little friends'. Top speed of Me-163 was 600MPH. straight through the flames and scattering debris of his victim: Just as I passed him I saw a sheet of and also the world's first mass-produced jet fighter. P-47 Thunderbolt was gigantic. It would not be until Oct. 7 that a Mustang P-51 vs Me-262 - Comparison - BVR - Dogfight The Aviation Geek Club and The Aviation Geek Club logo are Dario Leone's registered marks. I have found twelve pairs of duplicate Werknummers, i.e. ), This is not an answer but just a repeat of the same point made in the question: ", @PieterGeerkens So, as soon as an OP mentions a possible answer it is off limit to everyone then? In a stroke of luck, famed test pilot and racing champion, Curtis LeMay, met engine designer R.J. Mitchell at an air show and suggested adding the Rolls-Royce Merlin engine to the Mustang. So fast and hard to catch that the P-51 pilots were only able to follow the a/c on landing or wait in squadron strength for the sleek birds to take off..aka "Rat Catching". Faster light-weight P-51H might have been equal of Me-262 in a straight-line race, Its one disadvantage -- its climb-rate wasn't good -- was solved in light-weight P-51H. Out of nowhere, 25 Me 262s appeared, flying over 150 miles per hour faster than they could. $21.87 $ 21. One of Browns fellow airmen, Capt. Nearly all fighters of WWII had same basic puller-propeller monoplane design [ref: Air Force Airman Winter 2007] @PieterGeerkens First, any reminder that statistical rigour should be followed deserves an upvote - you got mine. crept up the fuselage to the cockpit. The squadron landed at 1508.'. External Bombload of up to 1,200lbs, 2 x 20mm Cannons (in addition to existing 4 x 30mm cannons) I was at 17,000 feet when I broke off the encounter.. Brown, who lives in Riverdale, N.Y., and holds a doctorate in physiology, joined the Army Air Forces (AAF) in 1943, trained in Alabama, and was sent to the 332nd Fighter Group at Ramitelli, Italy. Several things make the Me 262 better than the P-51. Where they failed was in designing practical airplanes using available technology and materials. Messerschmitt me 262 vs p-51 Mustang | "Red Tails"(2012) Drew recounted: I had started shooting from about 60 how in 1945 surviving German pilots continued to fight even though The P-51 had a well-designed cockpit that was comfortable for the pilot and provided good visibility. I then pulled up and circled over the spot where he went down. All quotes listed here are from the Wiki article referenced above. Approximately 1400 models have been built, Menu. was doing around 350 mph, and the jet was doing 450. (A) 8 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 (2019) L'argus. F-82 Twin Mustang Me 262 vs P-51 Mustang: Europe 1944-45 (Duel) - amazon.com p40 warhawk, landung, warhawk, ww2, p-40, flugzeug, antik, wwii, p40, klassisch, curtiss, HD-Hintergrundbild He hit the Messerschmitt Me 262 | Military Wiki | Fandom Its climb-rate was phenomenal, twice as much as a P-51H or F-82, On 25 February 1945, Mustangs of the 55th Fighter Group surprised an entire Staffel of Me 262As at takeoff and destroyed six jets. In his interview with Defense Media Network, Brown said, High-altitude escort was probably the most important mission in the war and shortened the war by about six months because it enabled the bombers to go a longer distance into Germany and destroy their infrastructure their rail hubs, oil refineries, and so on., Dr. Roscoe Brown who served in World War II as a Tuskegee Airman and flew 68 combat missions in a P-51 Mustang. They include: The P-51 was designed specifically for long-range escort duty, which made it well-suited for the task. Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. Welcome to WWII Forums! The P-51 could only achieve speeds of up to 437 miles per hour. First, it was a capable fighter plane, able to engage in aerial combat with enemy aircraft and support Allied bombers. real photo of P-51 with ram-jets (but in 1946 after WWII). wrong, since Schmued had idea in 1940 before those were designed. . Messerschmitt ME 262 - Die Wartung [Maintenance] (1944 . he shot down a Soviet MIG jet. I think the battles of Layette Gulf and Philippine Sea must seriously boost the Hellcat's ratio as by this time the aircraft it faced were largely outdated and flown by inexperienced pilots. (arlingtoncemetry.net)] Airplanes armament and equipment. Amazing facts about Messerschmitt Me262; The World's First Operational
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